Maybe for M17 you could have said "In a word, No." because really, it's a protocol by hams for hams, it would be cool to see folks rally around it and ditch some of the more closed source options. Great article Steve
John - In saying "In a word, Yes" I was trying to answer the plaint, in advance, of "Oh... GREAT... yet ANOTHER incompatible Digital Voice protocol". Yeah, this is another, but with a significant differentiation that makes it worthy of consideration.
If writing useful info about M17 is what you can do, that's good, as it takes a village. I'm sure you'll make it clear that you're just the writer, not the development team. And I'm just as sure your contributions will be enthusiastically welcomed! And, in advance, thank you.
Don - As an accomplished writer, Thank You! I just haven't seen anything (in text, or even video, etc.) that really gets the point across that M17 is really "ready to use". So, that's what I'm prepared to do to "help the M17 cause". Plus... as I write such material, I come to understand it better. I hope to be able to demonstrate (make some videos) of my own M17 test system, including, just maybe, a test repeater that includes MMDVM, which includes support for M17.
As long as you are allowing a proprietary service like groups.io, you might consider either Discord or Revolt (the FOSS Discord alternative) instead. These are more modern collaboration platforms. Lots of hobbyist activity on it already, including 3D printing, electronics, etc. with many special interest servers.
Servers on Discord are free, with some reasonable limitations.
Corey - M17 already uses Discord. One reason I (personally) don't prefer Discord is that it's oriented around realtime comms, and it's easy to lose context if you're not on it continuously. At least, that's my experience. Also in my experience, email lists are easier for asyschronous comms, and (in my opinion) better suited for a support role like what will be needed to help popularize M17.
Thanks for your reply. I hear ya. A few things you're probably already aware of then that can help mitigate that problem: using multiple channels for discussions that can be categorized. Threads are a nice way to keep chatter down when discussing a specific topic. Pinned posts help keep important info easy to find. This is starting to sound like a plug, but it's not. I have no connection to Discord other than as a user.
Nicolas - I understand your point, but the "M17 Devs" community, and the "Popularize M17" communities have different goals, so I don't think by creating an email list that I'm "fragmenting" M17... at least not too much.
Communications in Antarctica: Direct at the South Pole, wide band communication is difficult as you cannot use geostationary satellites. But the German Georg von Neumayer Station III can, in several ways. They even operate on QO100! There is quite some ham radio going on there. Many of the IT and communications specialists have been hams. The WSPR station DP0GVN is part of a scientific project to explore the ionosphere at higher latitudes. Otherwise it would not be there at this purely scientific station. Their receiver is extra special: It is not at the station proper but at a remote site that primarily examines the atmosphere away from the Diesel fumes of the station. You will hardly find a quieter location for SW reception. The hams that worked there say that they hear lots of stations, but they cannot be heard.
A note about TCP/IP: The Internet uses data packages with no more than 1500 bytes of payload. At least every fourth package must be acknowledged. This way the maximum transmission speed is not the limiting factor for satellite transmissions, the round-trip delay is - combined with all that ping-pong that servers and clients play all the time.
Alexander - Understood, but as the article discusses, you can use GEO satellites... barely and for small windows of time. It sounds like Starlink will help fix the issue. At least they don't have to compete (much) with other Starlink users in Antarctica, though I bet they'll be able to use them as bent pipes for remote science experiments where they previously had to use microwave or radio links to maintain communications.
As for TCP/IP over GEO sats, an old "hack" used for decades in TCP/IP over GEO sats for dealing with TCP/IP's ack requirements is to "fake out" the acks for the TCP/IP stack. As in, generate the acks locally instead of awaiting the other end to generate them. When the ack eventually comes, it's dropped. And, if instead there's no (eventual) ack, or even a nack, the local (customized) TCP/IP stack deals with that.
I am not so sure that Starlink might work at South Pole: As far as I know, Starlink uses satellites in 400 or 600 km high orbits. Which motivation should they have to send satellites in orbits over the poles? Starlink is primarily a consumer product.
I really wanted to hit SeaPac this year but work commitments took precedence. I find myself following the progress on M17 pretty closely. I don't think it's quite ready for a Random Wire Review but I can sense that coming at some undefined point in the future! As always, I learn a ton from your Zero Retries newsletter. It is "Random Wire Recommended"!
Tom - I would have enjoyed meeting up with you at SEA-PAC 2024. As for M17 knowledge, feel free to join the M17-Users email list - just send an email to m17-users+subscribe@groups.io.
Maybe for M17 you could have said "In a word, No." because really, it's a protocol by hams for hams, it would be cool to see folks rally around it and ditch some of the more closed source options. Great article Steve
John - In saying "In a word, Yes" I was trying to answer the plaint, in advance, of "Oh... GREAT... yet ANOTHER incompatible Digital Voice protocol". Yeah, this is another, but with a significant differentiation that makes it worthy of consideration.
If writing useful info about M17 is what you can do, that's good, as it takes a village. I'm sure you'll make it clear that you're just the writer, not the development team. And I'm just as sure your contributions will be enthusiastically welcomed! And, in advance, thank you.
Don - As an accomplished writer, Thank You! I just haven't seen anything (in text, or even video, etc.) that really gets the point across that M17 is really "ready to use". So, that's what I'm prepared to do to "help the M17 cause". Plus... as I write such material, I come to understand it better. I hope to be able to demonstrate (make some videos) of my own M17 test system, including, just maybe, a test repeater that includes MMDVM, which includes support for M17.
As long as you are allowing a proprietary service like groups.io, you might consider either Discord or Revolt (the FOSS Discord alternative) instead. These are more modern collaboration platforms. Lots of hobbyist activity on it already, including 3D printing, electronics, etc. with many special interest servers.
Servers on Discord are free, with some reasonable limitations.
Corey - M17 already uses Discord. One reason I (personally) don't prefer Discord is that it's oriented around realtime comms, and it's easy to lose context if you're not on it continuously. At least, that's my experience. Also in my experience, email lists are easier for asyschronous comms, and (in my opinion) better suited for a support role like what will be needed to help popularize M17.
Thanks for your reply. I hear ya. A few things you're probably already aware of then that can help mitigate that problem: using multiple channels for discussions that can be categorized. Threads are a nice way to keep chatter down when discussing a specific topic. Pinned posts help keep important info easy to find. This is starting to sound like a plug, but it's not. I have no connection to Discord other than as a user.
Please don't create an email list. Do your bit to reduce fragmentation. M17 already has various discussion groups on Discord.
You provide a great view of M17 in zero retries.
Contact the dev team to see how best to help. Thanks again for your M17 view!
Nicolas - I understand your point, but the "M17 Devs" community, and the "Popularize M17" communities have different goals, so I don't think by creating an email list that I'm "fragmenting" M17... at least not too much.
Discord could certainly be expanded to cover more popularize M17 topics.
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Do ask the M17 core team what they think.
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Email lists, with top post struggles and difficultly in following a thread etc, are no longer a great option.
Communications in Antarctica: Direct at the South Pole, wide band communication is difficult as you cannot use geostationary satellites. But the German Georg von Neumayer Station III can, in several ways. They even operate on QO100! There is quite some ham radio going on there. Many of the IT and communications specialists have been hams. The WSPR station DP0GVN is part of a scientific project to explore the ionosphere at higher latitudes. Otherwise it would not be there at this purely scientific station. Their receiver is extra special: It is not at the station proper but at a remote site that primarily examines the atmosphere away from the Diesel fumes of the station. You will hardly find a quieter location for SW reception. The hams that worked there say that they hear lots of stations, but they cannot be heard.
A note about TCP/IP: The Internet uses data packages with no more than 1500 bytes of payload. At least every fourth package must be acknowledged. This way the maximum transmission speed is not the limiting factor for satellite transmissions, the round-trip delay is - combined with all that ping-pong that servers and clients play all the time.
Alexander - Understood, but as the article discusses, you can use GEO satellites... barely and for small windows of time. It sounds like Starlink will help fix the issue. At least they don't have to compete (much) with other Starlink users in Antarctica, though I bet they'll be able to use them as bent pipes for remote science experiments where they previously had to use microwave or radio links to maintain communications.
As for TCP/IP over GEO sats, an old "hack" used for decades in TCP/IP over GEO sats for dealing with TCP/IP's ack requirements is to "fake out" the acks for the TCP/IP stack. As in, generate the acks locally instead of awaiting the other end to generate them. When the ack eventually comes, it's dropped. And, if instead there's no (eventual) ack, or even a nack, the local (customized) TCP/IP stack deals with that.
I am not so sure that Starlink might work at South Pole: As far as I know, Starlink uses satellites in 400 or 600 km high orbits. Which motivation should they have to send satellites in orbits over the poles? Starlink is primarily a consumer product.
I bought a QMX+ kit with the dev board at FDIM this year. I’m excited to build it.
Ria - The QMX+ definitely looks like a lot of fun! It's added to my list of eventual purchases.
I really wanted to hit SeaPac this year but work commitments took precedence. I find myself following the progress on M17 pretty closely. I don't think it's quite ready for a Random Wire Review but I can sense that coming at some undefined point in the future! As always, I learn a ton from your Zero Retries newsletter. It is "Random Wire Recommended"!
Tom - I would have enjoyed meeting up with you at SEA-PAC 2024. As for M17 knowledge, feel free to join the M17-Users email list - just send an email to m17-users+subscribe@groups.io.