2025-05-30 — 2800 Email Subscribers, A Few Last Zero Retries Impressions of Hamvention 2025, ARDC Priority Areas for Funding - R&D, The Importance of Internet-connected Systems for Amateur Community
There's a good discussion of this on the EEVBlog Forum. My take? Sure, users want to see power in Watts. And they usually get that information in product blurbs, at least for output levels of one Watt or more. But as an engineer and designer I truly appreciate units such as dBm, dBc, dBu, dBA, etc. And of course the dimensionless dB. I find them quite useful.
Paul - I'm glad dB measurements work for you and so many others. I'd never bothered to say anything... until Icamtuf's article said it perfectly. It doesn't, really, work very well for me and I suspect that working with dB instead of absolute units like watts is just another, of many friction points for a lot of folks trying to muddle their way through Amateur Radio technology.
A bit late to the party with this comment, but I’ll add anyway. As mentioned earlier, dB (specifically dBm and dBc) are certainly useful to engineers, but less so for actual users in the hobby. For instance, my spectrum analyzer’s maximum input rating is in dBm, and the LO drive of an RF mixer is also mentioned in dBm. While hams (I’m a ham first, a hobbyist engineer second) tend to think in watts, engineers usually work with dB. It’s beneficial to have an appreciation for both when starting to mix hobbies. However, I must admit that 50 mW initially seems more significant to me than 17 dBm (or is that -13 dBW?).
>You can go to the repository. New code is open there.
>Builds are complete and ready to be distributed.
So it looks like the "official" JS8Call isn't dead yet. I am also happy to hear that W6BAZ has transitioned all that legacy Fortran code over to C++. I had to slog through that Fortran and do my own C and C# conversions when I was building a WSPR transmitter, and later a JS8 decoder.
Fun fact: Apparently that wsjtx Fortran code was a translation of some C code written by Phil Karn.
I understand your frustration with M17's lack of presence at Hamvention. I was a really big supporter of M17. I am now incredibly frustrated by the project.
The merits of M17 are undeniable. But, at this point there is only one implementation of M17 in a radio...even though MMDVM has had M17 support since the early stages of the project. That one (ok two models of one radio) is not a good implementation in my mind.
The decision to use OpenRTX instead of incorporating M17 into the radio's firmware is frustrating. It removes all the features of the radio, for a long time it wouldn't even remember the VFO frequency. Additionally, there was no support for memory channels or CPS. Hopefully this has changed.
I know that you can switch between the factory firmware and OpenRTX, but that doesn't make a great experience. Why can't I just move between analog, DMR, and M17 channels?
I purchased Module17. I had great hopes, but the audio is not very good. There are chirps and pops that make it hard to listen to conversations. One of the developers even commented about needing to go back and work on the Module17 code to improve audio. Has that happened? Not sure, because I lost interest after a year.
I also purchased an MD-380 and converted it. Only to find out this radio has multiple versions of the motherboard and they don't all work the same when it comes to M17. I could not get it to key up a hotspot, then I found out about this know issue. Turned off again.
In my mind, not having a good, affordable, radio has turned a lot of people off. At one point, there was a video posted showing how M17 worked on the Lilygo T-TWR, a $60 radio. If this was brought to completion I think a lot of people would jump on M17...just because of the price point. I even purchased one of these in anticipation...but it never materialized.
I think the M17 Foundation is going to be hard pressed for donations, except by true believers. There have been way too many projects that have almost come to life, OpenHT, Micro17, and RRU. I think the M17 team needs to stop experimenting with new designs and push something good across the finish line. My personal vote is to get the T-TWR or OpenHT design working. They could also work with ComJot to get M17 added to their radio software...this open-source radio already supports analog and DMR, having a third mode would be great for both ComJot and M17.
I keep my eye on M17, hoping something great happens. But, I think the team really needs to focus on the one affordable and functional radio before people are going to get excited about M17 and start making donations.
> I had no idea that JS8Call development had stagnated for so long. In the News page,
> the latest update is:
>
>JS8Call Version 2.1 Released
>Dec 23, 2019
It's not as stagnant as you might think. That News page hasn't been updated, but Jordan's GitHub has been updated as recently as a few weeks ago. This used to be on bitbucket, but has moved to GitHub: https://github.com/js8call/js8call
Having a news page for a project, and then not maintaining it, can slow the adoption of a project. A stagnant news page gives the impression that there's no progress on the project, thus discouraging interest. Another example is https://mmdvm.com.
Decibels are Ridiculous?
There's a good discussion of this on the EEVBlog Forum. My take? Sure, users want to see power in Watts. And they usually get that information in product blurbs, at least for output levels of one Watt or more. But as an engineer and designer I truly appreciate units such as dBm, dBc, dBu, dBA, etc. And of course the dimensionless dB. I find them quite useful.
Paul - I'm glad dB measurements work for you and so many others. I'd never bothered to say anything... until Icamtuf's article said it perfectly. It doesn't, really, work very well for me and I suspect that working with dB instead of absolute units like watts is just another, of many friction points for a lot of folks trying to muddle their way through Amateur Radio technology.
A bit late to the party with this comment, but I’ll add anyway. As mentioned earlier, dB (specifically dBm and dBc) are certainly useful to engineers, but less so for actual users in the hobby. For instance, my spectrum analyzer’s maximum input rating is in dBm, and the LO drive of an RF mixer is also mentioned in dBm. While hams (I’m a ham first, a hobbyist engineer second) tend to think in watts, engineers usually work with dB. It’s beneficial to have an appreciation for both when starting to mix hobbies. However, I must admit that 50 mW initially seems more significant to me than 17 dBm (or is that -13 dBW?).
JS8Call Update --
Jordan just posted this to the JS8Call groups.io:
>You can go to the repository. New code is open there.
>Builds are complete and ready to be distributed.
So it looks like the "official" JS8Call isn't dead yet. I am also happy to hear that W6BAZ has transitioned all that legacy Fortran code over to C++. I had to slog through that Fortran and do my own C and C# conversions when I was building a WSPR transmitter, and later a JS8 decoder.
Fun fact: Apparently that wsjtx Fortran code was a translation of some C code written by Phil Karn.
That is funny... C to Fortran and back to C++.
I understand your frustration with M17's lack of presence at Hamvention. I was a really big supporter of M17. I am now incredibly frustrated by the project.
The merits of M17 are undeniable. But, at this point there is only one implementation of M17 in a radio...even though MMDVM has had M17 support since the early stages of the project. That one (ok two models of one radio) is not a good implementation in my mind.
The decision to use OpenRTX instead of incorporating M17 into the radio's firmware is frustrating. It removes all the features of the radio, for a long time it wouldn't even remember the VFO frequency. Additionally, there was no support for memory channels or CPS. Hopefully this has changed.
I know that you can switch between the factory firmware and OpenRTX, but that doesn't make a great experience. Why can't I just move between analog, DMR, and M17 channels?
I purchased Module17. I had great hopes, but the audio is not very good. There are chirps and pops that make it hard to listen to conversations. One of the developers even commented about needing to go back and work on the Module17 code to improve audio. Has that happened? Not sure, because I lost interest after a year.
I also purchased an MD-380 and converted it. Only to find out this radio has multiple versions of the motherboard and they don't all work the same when it comes to M17. I could not get it to key up a hotspot, then I found out about this know issue. Turned off again.
In my mind, not having a good, affordable, radio has turned a lot of people off. At one point, there was a video posted showing how M17 worked on the Lilygo T-TWR, a $60 radio. If this was brought to completion I think a lot of people would jump on M17...just because of the price point. I even purchased one of these in anticipation...but it never materialized.
I think the M17 Foundation is going to be hard pressed for donations, except by true believers. There have been way too many projects that have almost come to life, OpenHT, Micro17, and RRU. I think the M17 team needs to stop experimenting with new designs and push something good across the finish line. My personal vote is to get the T-TWR or OpenHT design working. They could also work with ComJot to get M17 added to their radio software...this open-source radio already supports analog and DMR, having a third mode would be great for both ComJot and M17.
I keep my eye on M17, hoping something great happens. But, I think the team really needs to focus on the one affordable and functional radio before people are going to get excited about M17 and start making donations.
Michael - You make a number of valid points about M17. I plan to do a Zero Retries article based on your comments, perhaps as soon as ZR 0205.
JS8Call - Updates
> I had no idea that JS8Call development had stagnated for so long. In the News page,
> the latest update is:
>
>JS8Call Version 2.1 Released
>Dec 23, 2019
It's not as stagnant as you might think. That News page hasn't been updated, but Jordan's GitHub has been updated as recently as a few weeks ago. This used to be on bitbucket, but has moved to GitHub: https://github.com/js8call/js8call
Having a news page for a project, and then not maintaining it, can slow the adoption of a project. A stagnant news page gives the impression that there's no progress on the project, thus discouraging interest. Another example is https://mmdvm.com.