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William C Hast's avatar

Steve, regarding data over DMR, I have always felt that at least a basic module be included in even the low cost radios to implement data over DMR. That would greatly expand the usage for EmmComms. Also when using AREDN in an area when you get out of the range of the AREDN gear you go over to data over DMR, use 3270 type screens (to keep the overhead down) to send and receive that data particular for disaster recovery. But there are so many applications that we could use data over DMR for. A radio with a Bluetooth module and a slab (phone or tablet) running a simple app that allows the sending of data for whatever need would be great. Combine data over DMR with AREDN, as you move in and out of AREDN coverage your DMR radio becomes the slower but still usable link. Just keep the overhead low (good old 3270 screens).

Chuck KP4DJT

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Steve Stroh N8GNJ's avatar

Chuck - we're in violent agreement that Data over DMR should (ideally) be included in DMR radios. 😀 Some do... but it's inscrutable.

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Michael Cheponis's avatar

Steve, why not hold ZRDC a day before the ARRL/TAPR Digital Conference? That way, we get a two-fer. I'm not sure there is significant overlap between ham geeks and GNU radio geeks - at least not as much as compared with ARRL/TAPR. In any case, Good Luck, Mr. Phelps. Mike K6THZ

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Steve Stroh N8GNJ's avatar

Mike - TAPR gave up on doing a DCC so there's no synergy to be had there. Tina and I thought that was a shame, and a "DCC" is something that is needed by Amateur Radio. So Tina and I decided to do a conference as an expanded mission of Zero Retries. We didn't want there to be any confusion that our conference had anything to do with ARRL/TAPR, so we called it the Zero Retries Digital Conference. There's a surprising amount of overlap with GNU Radio and the Zero Retries audience, and GNU Radio Conference did find a great venue. Thus... ZRDC 2025 in Everett, WA, USA immediately following GRCon 2025.

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William C Hast's avatar

I gave a buddy of mine (works with Mot DMR commercially) a set of cans for a VHF repeater, he is going to get me a Mot mobile and handheld (with BT) so I can setup a demo. I believe that WinLink has some templates for moving data that are similiar to the 3270 screen concept (there are still a boat load of warehouses that use 3270) I want to be able to use that demo for EmmComms folks. By the way most of the commercial data over DMR can also be setup to if bandwidth needed grab both TS to send data at about double the single TS rate. There is a reason why commercial DMR radios are called terminals, as I understand it that is the reason... Data Terminals. My real idea is the HMI is a slab (tablet or phone) talking to AREDN where available for the much higher speed and when dropped off AREDN on DMR through a BT connection to the hand held radio. So much to do and so little time to do so...

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Steve Stroh N8GNJ's avatar

Chuck - You'll enjoy this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ojhpRzyVI demonstrating data over Mototrbo. I'll guess (but don't KNOW) that there's no way to seamlessly transition a message between AREDN and Mototrbo data. It seems like the Mototrbo data capability is a Motorola app for Windows, and in that mode, there's no way to "break out" the TCP/IP connections to be able to route it into AREDN. What I'd really like to know is if the Mototrbo data can transition across any DMR repeater.

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William C Hast's avatar

There are several videos of folks doing the same with both Mac and Linux. And one was using Android for the mobile end. Let me see what I can find, but from what I understand it gives the mobile device an IP. I will dig it up, as soon as I get my devices I will be banging away on it. I also have a couple of Hytera radios that are supposed to be able to do the same. The thing that bugs me is the fact that each one has their own can of soup to do it. That is where we need some devs to step in and do some open source code that takes care of it, something that can run on all platforms.

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Steve Stroh N8GNJ's avatar

Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR. Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio". My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR.

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William C Hast's avatar

See my comments below:

Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR.

I believe this is the basic mode that the radios implement for simple data transfer

between two devices. But I also know that the radios are used as extensions of

large corporate networks providing data out to the mobile even if the bandwidth

is quite narrow. This is where protocols such as 3270 come into play, they use very

little bw to send templates which are filled out and only the variable parts are

sent back.

Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio".

That is my wise, but I want to get my hands on a couple of radios that already

do it and see what it can do. I know for example that if you have a large amount

of data to send and the function has been enabled, the radio can take both time

slots thereby doubling the bandwidth. We need something that is brand agnostic

allowing the moving of data between different radios.

Here is the URL on Brandmeister dealing with data transport over DMR:

https://wiki.brandmeister.network/index.php/DMR_Data_Transport

My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR

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William C Hast's avatar

Here is one where he is using to Mac machines to talk over Motorola radios

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs6NRC6L3xw

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William C Hast's avatar

He uses Nc (Netcat)for the connectivity solution. Every linux box out there has NC on it.

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