2025-06-27 — ZRDC 2025 Registration Now Open, AST SpaceMobile Lays Claim to 430-440 MHz and 902-928 MHz for Commercial Satellite Comms, Details About Data Over DMR, State of the APRS Foundation
Steve, regarding data over DMR, I have always felt that at least a basic module be included in even the low cost radios to implement data over DMR. That would greatly expand the usage for EmmComms. Also when using AREDN in an area when you get out of the range of the AREDN gear you go over to data over DMR, use 3270 type screens (to keep the overhead down) to send and receive that data particular for disaster recovery. But there are so many applications that we could use data over DMR for. A radio with a Bluetooth module and a slab (phone or tablet) running a simple app that allows the sending of data for whatever need would be great. Combine data over DMR with AREDN, as you move in and out of AREDN coverage your DMR radio becomes the slower but still usable link. Just keep the overhead low (good old 3270 screens).
Steve, why not hold ZRDC a day before the ARRL/TAPR Digital Conference? That way, we get a two-fer. I'm not sure there is significant overlap between ham geeks and GNU radio geeks - at least not as much as compared with ARRL/TAPR. In any case, Good Luck, Mr. Phelps. Mike K6THZ
Mike - TAPR gave up on doing a DCC so there's no synergy to be had there. Tina and I thought that was a shame, and a "DCC" is something that is needed by Amateur Radio. So Tina and I decided to do a conference as an expanded mission of Zero Retries. We didn't want there to be any confusion that our conference had anything to do with ARRL/TAPR, so we called it the Zero Retries Digital Conference. There's a surprising amount of overlap with GNU Radio and the Zero Retries audience, and GNU Radio Conference did find a great venue. Thus... ZRDC 2025 in Everett, WA, USA immediately following GRCon 2025.
I gave a buddy of mine (works with Mot DMR commercially) a set of cans for a VHF repeater, he is going to get me a Mot mobile and handheld (with BT) so I can setup a demo. I believe that WinLink has some templates for moving data that are similiar to the 3270 screen concept (there are still a boat load of warehouses that use 3270) I want to be able to use that demo for EmmComms folks. By the way most of the commercial data over DMR can also be setup to if bandwidth needed grab both TS to send data at about double the single TS rate. There is a reason why commercial DMR radios are called terminals, as I understand it that is the reason... Data Terminals. My real idea is the HMI is a slab (tablet or phone) talking to AREDN where available for the much higher speed and when dropped off AREDN on DMR through a BT connection to the hand held radio. So much to do and so little time to do so...
Chuck - You'll enjoy this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ojhpRzyVI demonstrating data over Mototrbo. I'll guess (but don't KNOW) that there's no way to seamlessly transition a message between AREDN and Mototrbo data. It seems like the Mototrbo data capability is a Motorola app for Windows, and in that mode, there's no way to "break out" the TCP/IP connections to be able to route it into AREDN. What I'd really like to know is if the Mototrbo data can transition across any DMR repeater.
There are several videos of folks doing the same with both Mac and Linux. And one was using Android for the mobile end. Let me see what I can find, but from what I understand it gives the mobile device an IP. I will dig it up, as soon as I get my devices I will be banging away on it. I also have a couple of Hytera radios that are supposed to be able to do the same. The thing that bugs me is the fact that each one has their own can of soup to do it. That is where we need some devs to step in and do some open source code that takes care of it, something that can run on all platforms.
Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR. Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio". My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR.
Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR.
I believe this is the basic mode that the radios implement for simple data transfer
between two devices. But I also know that the radios are used as extensions of
large corporate networks providing data out to the mobile even if the bandwidth
is quite narrow. This is where protocols such as 3270 come into play, they use very
little bw to send templates which are filled out and only the variable parts are
sent back.
Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio".
That is my wise, but I want to get my hands on a couple of radios that already
do it and see what it can do. I know for example that if you have a large amount
of data to send and the function has been enabled, the radio can take both time
slots thereby doubling the bandwidth. We need something that is brand agnostic
allowing the moving of data between different radios.
Here is the URL on Brandmeister dealing with data transport over DMR:
My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR
Chuck - Apologies for taking the easy way out on this and asking you. The big question is can a TCP/IP connection be established into and out of the "data over DMR client software" for Motorola or Hytera into a network? Qualification - just an individual user, not having Motorola or Hytera enterprise DMR infrastructure. If so, that's useful. If the data and messaging is confined to just the Motorola or Hytera app, that's less useful.
I am typing this with one finger, had procedure done on left hand this a.m. but it is done and I cannot let a bum hand stop me.
I know that large fleets use data over DMR, next is to see how done. ,I can see a simple "router" using netcat to rout data to the target radios. Would take probably some scripting. My Mot contact is working to get me some radios to start work on it.
But we need someone to take the ETSI DMR spec and work out a open source driver. Lets see what we can come up with.
I bet there are other vendors who sell data ready DMR radios AKA terminals, just have to see who.
I recall talking to Jerry at Connect Systems abt this, he wanted to know what protocol to use, perhaps if we can give him something to work with he can put it in his cs800+ series.
Based on the video using macs to talk to Mot devices you could probably set up something in an RPi to handle the base end, or even better terminate the network end at the repeater, randmeister references how to do that.
Steve, regarding data over DMR, I have always felt that at least a basic module be included in even the low cost radios to implement data over DMR. That would greatly expand the usage for EmmComms. Also when using AREDN in an area when you get out of the range of the AREDN gear you go over to data over DMR, use 3270 type screens (to keep the overhead down) to send and receive that data particular for disaster recovery. But there are so many applications that we could use data over DMR for. A radio with a Bluetooth module and a slab (phone or tablet) running a simple app that allows the sending of data for whatever need would be great. Combine data over DMR with AREDN, as you move in and out of AREDN coverage your DMR radio becomes the slower but still usable link. Just keep the overhead low (good old 3270 screens).
Chuck KP4DJT
Chuck - we're in violent agreement that Data over DMR should (ideally) be included in DMR radios. 😀 Some do... but it's inscrutable.
Steve, why not hold ZRDC a day before the ARRL/TAPR Digital Conference? That way, we get a two-fer. I'm not sure there is significant overlap between ham geeks and GNU radio geeks - at least not as much as compared with ARRL/TAPR. In any case, Good Luck, Mr. Phelps. Mike K6THZ
Mike - TAPR gave up on doing a DCC so there's no synergy to be had there. Tina and I thought that was a shame, and a "DCC" is something that is needed by Amateur Radio. So Tina and I decided to do a conference as an expanded mission of Zero Retries. We didn't want there to be any confusion that our conference had anything to do with ARRL/TAPR, so we called it the Zero Retries Digital Conference. There's a surprising amount of overlap with GNU Radio and the Zero Retries audience, and GNU Radio Conference did find a great venue. Thus... ZRDC 2025 in Everett, WA, USA immediately following GRCon 2025.
I gave a buddy of mine (works with Mot DMR commercially) a set of cans for a VHF repeater, he is going to get me a Mot mobile and handheld (with BT) so I can setup a demo. I believe that WinLink has some templates for moving data that are similiar to the 3270 screen concept (there are still a boat load of warehouses that use 3270) I want to be able to use that demo for EmmComms folks. By the way most of the commercial data over DMR can also be setup to if bandwidth needed grab both TS to send data at about double the single TS rate. There is a reason why commercial DMR radios are called terminals, as I understand it that is the reason... Data Terminals. My real idea is the HMI is a slab (tablet or phone) talking to AREDN where available for the much higher speed and when dropped off AREDN on DMR through a BT connection to the hand held radio. So much to do and so little time to do so...
Chuck - You'll enjoy this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6ojhpRzyVI demonstrating data over Mototrbo. I'll guess (but don't KNOW) that there's no way to seamlessly transition a message between AREDN and Mototrbo data. It seems like the Mototrbo data capability is a Motorola app for Windows, and in that mode, there's no way to "break out" the TCP/IP connections to be able to route it into AREDN. What I'd really like to know is if the Mototrbo data can transition across any DMR repeater.
There are several videos of folks doing the same with both Mac and Linux. And one was using Android for the mobile end. Let me see what I can find, but from what I understand it gives the mobile device an IP. I will dig it up, as soon as I get my devices I will be banging away on it. I also have a couple of Hytera radios that are supposed to be able to do the same. The thing that bugs me is the fact that each one has their own can of soup to do it. That is where we need some devs to step in and do some open source code that takes care of it, something that can run on all platforms.
Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR. Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio". My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR.
See my comments below:
Chuck - Purely in my experience with other systems, while such systems (like I'm imagining Hytera and Motorola do with their respective DMR systems) use TCP/IP, it's kind of a localized TCP/IP with self-assigned IP addresses (often non-routable such as 192.168.x.x) and other limitations. If such systems are connected to an enterprise network, then the IP addresses are globally assigned and routable within that system. I get the impression (and it's only that - MY IMPRESSION) that it's not designed for, and thus not "easy" to implement the kind of interoperability that you and I are desiring out of data over DMR.
I believe this is the basic mode that the radios implement for simple data transfer
between two devices. But I also know that the radios are used as extensions of
large corporate networks providing data out to the mobile even if the bandwidth
is quite narrow. This is where protocols such as 3270 come into play, they use very
little bw to send templates which are filled out and only the variable parts are
sent back.
Thus I really look forward to you being able to do some experiments that take data communications beyond "I was able to send a file or a text message via one Mototrbo DMR radio to another Mototrbo DMR radio" or "I was able to send a file or a text message from one Hytera DMR radio to another Hytera DMR radio".
That is my wise, but I want to get my hands on a couple of radios that already
do it and see what it can do. I know for example that if you have a large amount
of data to send and the function has been enabled, the radio can take both time
slots thereby doubling the bandwidth. We need something that is brand agnostic
allowing the moving of data between different radios.
Here is the URL on Brandmeister dealing with data transport over DMR:
https://wiki.brandmeister.network/index.php/DMR_Data_Transport
My lowest hope is that Mototrbo DMR can send data to a Hytera DMR. I'm only mentioning those two brands because I've seen that they've "built out" the necessary "hooks" for doing data over DMR. My ultimate hope is that data over DMR can be implemented more globally with radios that are more accessible. Hmmm... perhaps an open letter to Anytone asking them to put the necessary hooks into their radio firmware to be able to data over DMR
Here is one where he is using to Mac machines to talk over Motorola radios
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs6NRC6L3xw
He uses Nc (Netcat)for the connectivity solution. Every linux box out there has NC on it.
For those like me who aren't familiar with Netcat - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netcat.
Chuck - Apologies for taking the easy way out on this and asking you. The big question is can a TCP/IP connection be established into and out of the "data over DMR client software" for Motorola or Hytera into a network? Qualification - just an individual user, not having Motorola or Hytera enterprise DMR infrastructure. If so, that's useful. If the data and messaging is confined to just the Motorola or Hytera app, that's less useful.
I am typing this with one finger, had procedure done on left hand this a.m. but it is done and I cannot let a bum hand stop me.
I know that large fleets use data over DMR, next is to see how done. ,I can see a simple "router" using netcat to rout data to the target radios. Would take probably some scripting. My Mot contact is working to get me some radios to start work on it.
But we need someone to take the ETSI DMR spec and work out a open source driver. Lets see what we can come up with.
I bet there are other vendors who sell data ready DMR radios AKA terminals, just have to see who.
I recall talking to Jerry at Connect Systems abt this, he wanted to know what protocol to use, perhaps if we can give him something to work with he can put it in his cs800+ series.
Based on the video using macs to talk to Mot devices you could probably set up something in an RPi to handle the base end, or even better terminate the network end at the repeater, randmeister references how to do that.
Sorry for the mess but one finger typing is bad.